We both were not Friends at first, we've been stressed from the Beginning. But i couldn't help myself asking why in the World he would use his 1/2" Torque Wrench to loose the Center Nut. He told something about Torque and Length of Leverage, but i said, this is plain wrong in my Book, made him very unhappy, talk about a bad Start ... It's not funny if a Guy looks over Shoulder and knows exactly what needs to be done and how to proceed. But after his Screw Up with the outer Hub, he was much more willing to listen to my Words, we shook Hands in the End.

@ Harger

That's BS imho, there's no Way ONE single Plate is warped. it's wether two or three, or none.

The Push Rod maybe bent, but that's sure on their Bill, i can't see how a Mech would be able to place the Rod out of Center and tighten down the Pressure Plate. However, if the Push Rod IS bent, the warped Plates are on their Bill too.

I'd question the Fibre Discs too, if Steels are warped. Also, if the Push Rod is bent, i'd suspect the Ball Bearing inside the Pressure Plate too. That Bearing Style isn't the best Idea at that Place to begin with, but if the Push Rod is bend, there's a fair Chance the Bearing is damaged too. It might not show right now, but you can expect hearing Noise form the Bearing a Lot sooner than it should.

I had a group Buy going on for Replacement Bearings for said Bearing, mainly on the 1Gen Max. It's not a Standard Ball Bearing, but a Shoulder Bearing, it's the same Size as the standard 6003 Ball Bearing, fits 2Gen as well as 1Gen Maxxes, but because it's a high Precision Spindle Bearing, it comes in Pairs and it's not cheap at all. But it tones down the Clutch Noise because of it's better Style and adds a Lot of Longevity.

HARGER2010MAX wrote:
Rich,
That doesn't look good for the dealer, especially the loose bolts...they do have a torque wrench don't they???...

I know we have all discussed this "Oil Pump Recall" on several threads and many members passed it all off as a "slam dunk" recall, which is CAN be, if the tech takes their time to ensure that all is coming out and going in properly...but as we have witnessed, there were several mistakes made by some techs...

Having said that, I too, had clutch slippage after having my recall done and I figured it just needed to have the clutch line bled out, although that side of the bike was never touched by the tech, so I did it myself a few times with no success...so I took it back in to the dealer and what we found was that the clutch master cylinder plunger was misaligned and pushing in the master cylinder plate prematurely all the time...once that was corrected, the slippage went away...don't know why this happened just when the recall work was done...but as we use to say in the Navy...s%#^ happens...

Although this problem had no connection with the oil pump recall but my point here is that, any time, any service is done, there is the remote possibility that unrelated things can make the work that was done, seem to have been done incorrectly and in some cases, it was...and, I am not saying that the work that the dealer did is not the cause but it could be something else...

In your case Rich, the dealer definitely needs to re-do the entire recall work from the start and do it right...so that you can re-check their work statically and on the road...

For the others, I would explain in length, again statically and by having them road test it, in order to isolate the problem...

One thing to remember is that the clutch basket along with all of the plates, can be removed basically in a "intact" fashion for the most part and in most cases, should not cause any plates from being reinstalled backwards or in a different order as it was before the recall work...if the tech did pull out the plates, one by one and did not place them on the bench in the order and placement as they were removed, that is an unqualified tech who needs some refresher training...

A bent push rod as someone here had mentioned is definitely not good and can only mean that reassembly was not done correctly...I would think...unless it was bent to start with...

Hope all of you get the issues resolved so that you can start riding again after the long winter...

Ride safe...

Art

Squeeze/Art= THANKS!!

Have not had time to go back in this morn. I was so ticked off yesterday, yelled so lound, had the entire staff, in the service dept. My 3yr old, said let's leave, so i listened!! This may-be all my fault. I only go to this dealer, which is the only one, who would do the recall in Omaha,NE, for tire changes. With all my jetski's throughout the year's, never let the dealer's touch any of them. Never even let them do recall's on them either. For ski's, it's also been the damn oil pump. I would just take the pump off, and block it, pre-mix myself. I had a wierd gut feeling not to have them touch it!! When I took off the cover, seen that the bolts were loose, I was a walking bomb. I will soon see what takes place. I may just get MAX, take her where she was ordered from.

One Things to add from me, i don't know if that happens on a stock System also(i mounted the CLutch Master from my 1Gen Max on the 2Gen), but when i take off the Pressure Plate, i need to press the Push Rod in before mounting the Pressure Plate. If i don't do this, the hydraulic Force from the Rod is big enough to keep the Pressure Plate even from sitting down on the Clutch Package. No way to to tighten the Bolts down this way securely, even with two Clutch Springs working against the Push Rod and it's hydraulic Force. I checked the Fluid Level in the Master for being overfilled, but the Level there is OK.

I have no Idea where this comes from, but when i don't push the Rod in, i could see myself not tightening the Bolts as they should be. Which leads to lousy clamping force on the Clutch Package and, after Things have settled for a bit, loose Bolts.

As i said, i don't know if it the same with a stock 2Gen Clutch Master, but if it works the same there also, that might very well be the basic Culprit on these Clutch Troubles.

No it has not been done as they asked if I wanted it done when they did the oil pump. They only took 1 hour to do the pump so there would not have been enough time to do the other recall.
wjzwiss wrote:

So tell me... do they remove the plates from the basket to do the work or do they remove the basket with all plates intack? That is what I was wondering as if the plates got put back in a different order than they had been... then they would not have worn together and might not sit together as tight. Even if in the correct order but turned a different way that also could cause slippage?

Also would putting the clutch outer hub on wrong cause my slipping clutch?

Squeeze wrote:

Squeeze wrote:
+1 I have to do the same thing.

If you want, you can take out the whole Clutch Assembly all at once. But i tend to believe, putting it back in as one Package would be a Problem, because there are two "Washers" between Clutch Basket and inner Hub. One of them, the flat, spring Type Washer goes into a Recess in the Inner Hub and will stay in Place, but the other, cross-slotted, will most likely slip out of center. The MEch today pulled them Plates one for one out before he pulled the Clutch Hub.

Putting in the outer Hub wrong in Regards to the inner Hub will result in no Clutch at all. The Pressure Plate won't have any Contact with the Clutch Plates.

As Hammer confirmed, if the Push Rod isn't pressed towards the left Side during tightening down the six Bolts on the Pressure Plate can cause any Conditon inbetween what Hager expiriences and solid Clutch Operation. It may very well be the Culprit on your Ride.

Mixing up the Indexes of the Fibre Plates will most likely cause Trouble while disengaging or a slipping Clutch to begin with, i can't see them causing a slipping Condition like you describe.

Another Thing COULD be the Direction of the Steel Plates. They have a round and sharp Edge on the inside Toothwork. The sharp Edge should face towards the Pressure Plate. Doing so will cause the Edges to bite in the Toothwork of the outer Hub, making it harder for them to move when you pull the Clutch Lever, making it harder for the individual Plates to travel on the outer Hub.
But it also helps them slipping back easily when the Pressure Plate starts to clamp down the Clutch Package. There are a Number of Thoughts and Opinions about this Detail, i had Discussions about it in the Past. But i specifically watched out for the Direction of these Edges today, and this is the Way Yammi delivered it from the Factory. It confirmed my Thoughts and i'm sticking to it. That said, it might not make any Difference at all.

Your Problem might by a Combination of the Things i listed here, or something completely different. This Clutch is not a standard Clutch, but in the End, it's not Rocket Science, i'd break out a 5 mm Allen Head and a 10mm Socket Wrench and check the Plates, Index, Direction, Edges, and the Push Rod Issue myself. Takes less than an Hours to check and align anything and have a short Test Ride. If the Problem still exists, take it back to the Dealer, if your good, have a Beer and be one happy Camper.
Comtek wrote:

Squeeze wrote:
Squeeze,
Some great points...the one that I would look at if it were my bike would be the reversed plates...it is very possible for the tech to have mistakenly reversed one or more of the plates when they reassembled the basket...especially if they did not put the plates out as a total set or they didn't pull them out and place them on a bench in the order and orientation that they were pulled out...

This is an issue that is not unique to the GEN1 but also was and is a common error made on the GEN1s...that would definitely cause the clutch to not engage properly and in the case of Rich, where he had loose bolts...it could also cause that also along with the push rod not being pushed in and seated all the way in properly during reassembly...

I know that you had mentioned that you did not know if on a stock clutch setup, that by not seating the push rod in properly would cause the bolts to be loose after some pulls on the clutch level...but do you think that, that is a possibility or does it have more to do with engines with a Double-D pressure plate setup???...just wondering if it would be a good idea to open her up just to check...

Art

cvvmax wrote:
Art, i really don't know what in the World causes the Push Rod to come out a fair bit. It's can't be Gravity of the Fluid powering the Salve Cylinder. I need to push hard on the Push Rod to get it back where it belongs and it will come out during tightening down the Bolts and with significant Power. The Power of two Springs pressing against the Push Rod is not enough to retract the Push Rod because 8 Nm is next to nothing of Torque in Relation to the hydraulik Force which is acting here. It doesn't have anything to do with single or double Disc, because the major Factor here is reaching the right Depth of the Bolts. You can reach this Torque at any given Depth, making the Bolts not sitting where they should be, nor actually tight at all. That makes the Pressure also sit anywhere from loose to tight and fine.

If you ride around in this questionable Condition, the Pressure Plate starts tumbling every time you pull the Clutch Lever, dancing on the Center of the Pressure Plate, which is the Push Rod.

This can't happen if you have the Push Rod pushed in and staying there during tightening the Pressure Plate. The Pressure Plate will be sitting snug and fine, isn't able to tumble and pushes against the Clutch Package with all the Force the Sping(s)can express.

Opening the Cover just to check ?

Might not be a bad Idea, checking this Issue alone would take me not more than 20 Minutes. But, i have Sealant on my Clutch Cover Gasket and use a cordless Drill to undo and remount the Cover Bolts. Once the Cover is off, you only need to press the Push Rod in and see if it comes back out all alone. If it doesn't, everything is ok, you pull the Lever three or four Times until Pressure in the Line is created again. If the Rod comes back out, you most likely need to undo the Reservoir Cover and then push the Rod in and check again. It should then stay where you brought to. Then check the Torque on the Pressure Plate Bolts for klicking at 8 Nm. Button everything back up and you're done.

*** Remark ***
While i was typing at three thirds of the above Monologue, i decided to take another Look at the Fluid Level and the Vent Hole of the Clutch Master Cover tomorrow. That's the only Thing which could produce enough hydraulic Force to move the Push Rod with this hydraulic Force. If the Vent Hole is clogged, you compress the Air above the Rubber Diaphragm by pushing the Rod in, once you let the Rod go, the Air is expanding again, creating Pressure in the Clutch Line.

The Hole itself might be free and open, but an Aftermarket Cover may have it at the wrong Place, sealing it during Cover install and thereby not allowing the Room above the Diaphragm to breath. It's not about leaking Fluid to the outside or sealing the Fluid from the Elements, it's just Air trapped between Cover and Rubber Diaphragm and causing uncalled Actions.